You're Playing OD&D. You get your fighting-man to 9th level. He raises and army with all his gold. He travels to a hex on the map. He rolls to see if there are any monsters in that hex. He kills the monsters. There are now 2d4 villages in that hex. Each has 1d4 *100 people.
Friday, October 30, 2020
Gygaxian Spontaneous Generation and a More Involved Procedure for Setting up your Demense
Wednesday, October 21, 2020
More on Dungeon Mapping and Darkness
Here be Monsters |
My last post triggered another one of these reactions:
There is an element in old school d&d that having players map their own map based on the DMs descriptions is prone to a misunderstanding and incorrect mapping, which is a part of the game that Gygax really seemed to be into, as much as his "gotcha!" Tricks he seemed to encourage. So when the party goes back into the dungeon and find out that they mismapped the section of the graph paper with a dungeon corridor by 30', it's more frustrating that fun.
Once again, I get it. People think it is annoying to try and make a map. This is an aspect of the dnd that
has been excised from the rules in the last few editions. My internet friend quoted above continued on with this other common thing you hear often when talking about player mapping:
Logically, if you've been somewhere before, chances are you'll have a good idea how to navigate back to a location the next day (unless you fell down a pit or some other involuntary moment happened)
As logical as this may seem it is not true for being underground. I have been in a pitch black cave with a torch (an electric torch, which is better than a flaming stick). You can't see a whole cavern at once and it is very difficult to get the dimensions or a mental model of the space in your head. It is super easy to get lost in a dark cave:
From our first step into subterranean darkness, our hippocampus, which so reliably guides us through the surface world, goes on the fritz, like a radio that has lost reception. We are cut off from the guidance of the stars, from the sun and the moon. Even the horizon vanishes—if not for gravity, we’d scarcely know up from down. All of the subtle cues that might orient us on the surface—cloud formations, plant-growth patterns, animal tracks, wind direction—disappear. Underground, we lose even the guide of our own shadow.
Down in a tight cave passage, or in the bounded folds of a catacomb, our field of view is blinkered, never reaching beyond the next twist or kink. As the cave historian William White observed, you never really see a whole cave—only one sliver at a time. When we navigate a landscape, wrote Rebecca Solnit in A Field Guide to Getting Lost, we are reading our surroundings as a text, studying “the language of the earth itself”; the underground is a blank page, or a page scribbled with language we cannot decipher. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/02/getting-lost-cave-labyrinth-brain/582865/(You should seriously read the whole article. I am going to get the book the article is base on.)
Here is another account of people getting lost in a cave once their light went out they had no mental model of the cave and couldn't navigate out. Then check out the Wikipedia article on Mine Exploration.
Player
mapping is I think supposed to simulate this. When a player asks how
big a room is and their character has a torch with a 30' radius of
light. I imagine and sometimes describe to the players how they need to
travel from one end to the other counting paces while their comrades
wait in the darkness. One wall disappears. you count. Then a corner
appears. You turn. the corner disappears there is a door way, you pass
that it is engulfed in darkness then another corner. Eventually you
have the perimeter. Then you push out blindly into the middle of the
room. slowly. You might trip. If you've been quiet enough it is
conceivable that there is still something sleeping there.
Patrick Stuart from of False Machine has written a lot about light on his blog during the writing of Veins of the Earth
Under
these conditions it is highly plausible that you might make a mistake
mapping fumbling around on your tiny island of light in a sea of
darkness scraping your grease pencil or charcoal nub on your vellum or
sheet of papyrus. Here is another excerpt from the Atlantic Article; Apparently real world delvers had just as much trouble mapping as frustrated Dnd players:
Even when they did manage to make measurements, meanwhile, the explorers’ spatial perception was so warped by the caprices of the environment that their findings would be wildly off the mark. On a 1672 expedition in Slovenia, for example, an explorer plumbed a winding cave passage and recorded its length at six miles, when in reality, he had traveled only a quarter mile. The surveys and maps that emerged from these early expeditions were often so divergent from reality that some caves are now effectively unrecognizable. Today, we can only read the old reports as small, mysterious poems about imaginary places.
Maybe you still aren't convinced. Maybe you think that the artificial seeming dungeons would not be as disorienting as natural caverns. Plenty of people have gotten lost in the Paris catacombs. Here is one account. I would also encourage you to watch this Youtuber get lost in the Paris Catacombs; notice how feeble the light seems and the knee deep water.
These maps make me think of the early maps that cavers would make, "a mysterious poem about an imaginary place." |
It's interesting that these maps were labeled by of exploration. It supports my idea that player maps are often adventure logs rather than surveys. |
Also check out what the caves under Castle Valkenburg with a bunch of flashing lights
Monday, October 12, 2020
When and How Players Should Map: In which I Ramble on until I Tell you to Match the Type of Mapping you are doing to the Type of Adventure you are on.
- lets the players know where they've been
- serves as a kind of adventure log
- helps players plot goals for the next session
- can help the party find secret doors
- can help the party circumvent random encounters
For years, mapping formed a part of D&D that players tolerated, but that few questioned. Then, this revolutionary game seemed so fresh and intoxicating that even duties like mapping found love, just a lot less than the game’s actual fun parts.
-DM David
Here is Geoffrey from the comments, he also hates mapping:
I think this is a great idea a flow chart can serve most of the purposes that an accurate map does. The only limitations of a flow chart are in avoiding random encounters and finding secret doors. Let's see what the comments have to say:First, let’s throw out the notion that it is in any way necessary for the party to produce a map of the same quality as one of Pathfinder’s in house cartographers. That s$&% is useless and pointless and it sets the bar way too high. Instead, let’s agree that the best way to map is the way that those of us who ever played a game Zork already knew – one of the old Zork games before graphics were invented that is. All the party needs is a flowchart. A room is just a box with a name in it. A connection between rooms is just a hash mark on the wall between the rooms. A hallway is just a line. That’s it. Quick and dirty.
The point is that a player’s map isn’t meant to be a f$&% architectural rendering. It’s just meant to show how to get from room to room and which rooms are where. Basically, a player’s map just needs to answer some very basic questions:
- How the hell did we get here?
- How the hell do we get back?
- Where the hell do we go next?
- Where the hell is that room with the statue with the missing eyes because now we have those two eye-shaped gems?
In other words, players don’t need a map. They need a flowchart. That’s it. Hell, it’s really just a list of rooms with identifying features and some way of showing how to get from one to another. These are perfectly fine player’s maps:
No. Just no. Ten years of having to map other people’s fucking dungeons has taught me this is a waste of time. Getting rid of this was key to actually enjoying dungeons First of all, the reality is that verbal language is a shitty ass way to describe room shape, unless, as you say, all of your rooms are conveniently rectangular with at least one single distinctive feature and no complex spatial relationships. This describes almost no interesting building ever. Caves arent rectangular either.
More to the point, in real life, people have strong spatial awareness, which means walking around they rapidly build a spatial map. This does not apply to verbal descriptions, and adds an excessive amount of mental effort to the roll.
A key component of playing an rpg is being able to feel present and oriented in person. Making accidental fuck ups about basic room shape and orientation rampant makes that practically impossible. It’s even worse if you run a large group and people cant always make it every week (such is life). Then half the players have no clue where they are, and find it hard to contribute. I say this, and half of the people I play with work with building maps, now, though I suppose they didnt at the time.
Works well for wilderness crawls, though. I do like a basic global map to remind people of “you started in that village, and there are mountains over there”, but this may relate more to the issue of “large group, occasionally players cant make it” issue.
Maps are a record of an expedition and players should tailor the type of mapping they are doing to the type of expedition they are on. If there is a unity between the purpose of expedition and the type of mapping that players are doing then the maps will be more useful and more rewarding to make
Dungeon Meshi for Dungeons and Dragons: Ape to Bear
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I was talking to a friend on twitter. This is my one internet friend I have who I met in person at a con. He wanted a supplement based on s...
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Enjoyed this reflection, David. I’ve always thought that mapping was stupid. We used to do it all the time with 2nd edition, but then it seemed ridiculous and unrealistic. I mean, if we accept that the player-characters have the time and luxury to make a reliable map (and often times the DM would assist to make sure they were correct!), then why bother? Just let the DM answer all the questions you might have and direct you accordingly? And if the DM *wasn’t* clear with directions/descriptions, then there’d be an argument when discrepancies emerged.
Of course, with the advent of erasable, gridded mats, or even model dungeon-construction toys, mapping became unnecessary, and the “fog of war” was all you had to worry about.
I dislike mapping so much because of the immense time-suck, that I even look for ways to not have to make maps in the first place–AS A DM. lol During the 2E days, I had a copy of Ruins of Undermountain, but we never played that for what it was. I just looked for small sections of the map that had the kinds of tunnels and rooms I wanted, photocopied the area, then used a marker to black-out the sections I didn’t need so the map would be self-contained. A few notes in the margin, and then ta-da! A dungeon map. I have long sought a good system for random dungeon generation, since nobody really cares about the *shape* of the dungeon as much as the *adventure* inside it.o